A newsletter to support High Performance Leadership and Creativity in
Individuals and Organizations™
Vm.
1, No. 2, 2001
By
Jan Hoistad, Ph.D., LP and Associates
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Jan:
Robert, would you talk a little bit about your thoughts on the difference
between the subconscious mind and the intuition, and how they relate?
Robert:
I think intuition is a byproduct of the subconscious mind. In other
words I think intuition comes from the unconscious. The conscious
mind is not intuitive at all. It is very linear. It is a very small
part of your mind compared to your unconscious. So that if you think
about intuition.... it is something that comes to you and it doesn't
come in a liner fashion. You're not thinking about something - you
deduce it. Your conscious mind uses deductive reasoning and your unconscious
mind uses inductive reasoning.
That
is a real difference. So when your unconscious works on a problem,
then all of a sudden you have a sense of where you should go or what
is the next question or what is the next thing you should do. Your
conscious mind would never do that. It would come up into your conscious
mind, but if you notice, you didn't arrive at the answer or the question
or the information through your normal thinking channels.
Jan:
Right.......It is more of an aha or an insight.
Robert:
A mini satori! So that would be more what intuition is.
Jan:
So we are implying that inductive reasoning and intuition are a much
larger body of information available to us. Is that correct?
Robert:
Oh, yes! The subconscious mind is a huge storehouse of information.
Jan:
So how do you get people, who are often very busy and stressed, and
often more linear in their thinking process to become interested in
this wonderful storehouse of information which is accessible to them?
Robert:
How you get them interested is that you sell them on the benefit.
Jan:
You tell me what the benefit is then.
Robert:
Well the benefit is that they come up with their own ideas, or they
can discover new ways rather than following a kind of receipt or a
prescription or someone else's way of doing something........ that
they may suddenly discover a new way to do something ....... a shorter
method..... one that is more efficient or more effective. So there
are many benefits to being able to shift into the subconscious part
of their mind.
Jan:
Well imagine you're working with a group of engineers in a manufacturing
firm.... and you can see that utilizing their subconscious mind ....
opening up that part of themselves would be potentially helpful in
their work and leadership, how..........
Robert:
I would start talking about your mind as a whole and then how the
conscious mind operates in a way they understand. I would point out
that in the conscious mind, things are very linear. That one thought
precedes the next thought and so on. I give them an example. I say,
"Let's imagine you are in the kitchen and have to go to another part
of your home to get something and you go and on the way you see that
something needs to go down the laundry chute or that the cats dish
needs refilling or whatever, and you stop and do that .......... and
now all of a sudden you realize you don't know what you are doing
there because you got disconnected from the original process. And
if you can't remember you may have to go back to the kitchen and recall
it.
I think
that most people have had those experiences because ....... it's just
like when you learn poetry . When you had to memorize poetry in high
school , each word was predicated on the word before it and if you
lost one word, you lost the rest of the poem. And that's the way the
conscious mind operates. So it's very, very limited in what it can
do.
Jan:
Yes but let me pursue this....... You and I both have people we work
with, in coaching or psychotherapy, who are either resistant to some
of these ideas, or who may want the changes, want to reach their goals,
........ but to get them to actually stop and take charge of their
life........ umm ...... to get rid of some of the stress and to use
techniques which bring them inside to access their subconscious mind..........
it's like even the step before they say yes I want to get to that.
Robert:
Then, you explain how the other part of their mind, the unconscious
mind contains every experience, everything they have ever known …....
I say as you are sitting in this room you are listening to what I
am saying. As you are listening to what I am saying, your conscious
mind is unaware of the color of the walls, the lighting, the temperature,
maybe background sounds...... you are not aware of that fan going
until I mention it, maybe not even hear the bird in the background.
But your
unconscious ........... if I were to go say to hypnosis......... and
have you come back to this moment, a year from now, six months from
now, five years from now, you would be able to look around within
that experience and tell me all these things. So your unconscious
is picking up everything and remembers everything and has the ability
of synthesizing and compiling information and coming up with a whole
new answer. Your conscious mind doesn't have that.
Jan:
So basically you try and sell them on that.
Robert:
Yes, that the unconscious has so much more, there's so much more in
there ...... and schools tell us..... remember when we were growing
up ..... "scientists tell us we're using five percent" some said,
"ten percent of our abilities". ....Right? We heard that growing up
..... we only use five or ten percent of our abilities, well where
the hell is the rest of it? Where is the 95 or 90 percent missing?
It's in your unconscious!
But we
were never taught to use our unconscious ..... never taught to stop
or meditate or get quiet or consider a problem. Thomas Edison, he
would struggle on trying to figure how a bulb would work. It wouldn't
work and he'd go over and lie down. It was said he would take a ten
or fifteen minute nap .... he was going into hypnosis.... he would
come back with an idea ...... come right back off that little mat
..... that bed........ little cot........ and start hitting it.......
and that wouldn't work he'd go back to the cot and rest. Well he was
using his unconscious to work on all this information. When his conscious
mind failed, he'd take a nap and let his unconscious mind effortlessly
do the work!
Jan:
So people have to desire though....... they have to..... want these
benefits?
Robert:
Oh I think so, yes, otherwise ...... but why would they be dealing
with you if they weren't desirous of making some changes?
Jan:
Well ……no, I have coaching clients that are desirous of making changes
but for some reason .... you know... their life...... they get all
caught up in their life's stresses, and there seems to be a period
of time where they have to go, "yes I really want that". They have
to really, really want it. Otherwise ......
Robert:
Right, right!
Jan:
.........we talk a lot about it ..... about the changes ....... and
they may dabble in some changes but they don't embrace it fully. So
...... I know I'm not just talking about the subconscious mind here
but I'm talking about how do you..... how do we encourage people and
show them that actually this is going to save you time and effort?
This is less work.....
Robert:
Oh by far!
Jan:
..... then all the stress you are putting yourself through!
Robert:
I use examples too, sometimes ............have you ever been in the
mall and you see somebody, a face and you go ..... "Oh I know that
person" and you think and think and think who it is ....... or you're
having a discussion and somebody says who was that actress or actor
in that movie blah, blah, blah? And you think and think and think
and you can't figure it out and pretty soon you let it go and sometime
later usually when you are very quiet.... when your mind is shut off
and you are not thinking.... bang - up it pops on the screen.
Jan:
unh huh
Robert:
Well, if you knew that ahead of time all you really have to do ....
if you struggle a little while and then quit and realize that the
information will be researched by your unconscious mind, and will
come back up when it's ready….... you just start relaxing, you don't
push so hard. You give your unconscious a problem and then you let
it get resolved. And you start to recognize how your unconscious mind
delivers information to you.
Jan:
So, a key here is that people have to get quiet some of the time.
Robert:
Yes. They don't have to meditate, but they have to stop trying to
get........ they have to stop efforting.
Jan:
And they have to stop being so busy...... some of the time.
Robert:
Yes, and struggling and figuring the only way you're going to get
anywhere is to struggle and effort and push and strive. And all of
that effort shuts off....... the creative juices .... shuts off their
ability to use that intuition which is the same thing as creativity.
Jan:
Say more about that.
Robert:
Well, when you say intuition ........ I see intuition and creativity
as being similar. Intuition is kind of intuiting an answer to something.........
creativity may be ........… You know I taught a course in creativity
......... you would visualize what it was that you wanted to create
or if you wanted to have a situation you might visualize how you would
feel in that situation even though couldn't picture exactly how that
situation might happen or might appear or how you might arrive there.
How would I feel in that situation, how would I feel if I had this
amount of money in the bank or how would I feel if I had this particular
thing or whatever in my life.
So you
give enough information and then you get out of the way and you let
your unconscious work out the details. And you will arrive at that
thing in a way you could never have chosen on your own.
Jan:
And that's the creativity.
Robert:
Yes.
Jan:
Did you think that it helps if people know the question? Like, "How
do I get to be this, or how do I get there"?
Robert:
No! I don't think they can know. I think they need ........ that's
where they need to let go. They need only to say..............
Jan:
But maybe they need to know the question. I think it helps to know
the question.
Robert:
What's the question?
Jan:
Where do I want to be in a year.
Robert:
Oh yeah , that question but not how do I get there.
Jan:
Right! And leave the "how" to your subconscious mind.
Robert:
Yes.
Jan:
But to be able to identify............
Robert:
Right, we used to have people do an exercise....... you know......
you want a nice new car. Find one in a magazine tear it out .....
take the picture and paste it up on your mirror ........ paste them
up on the refrigerator ....... keep looking at it. So your unconscious
mind says, "Oh this is the goal huh"? And it will set out to do certain
things that will bring that about. As long as the goal is reasonable.
You don't see yourself as president of the United States or something
.... a little far fetched.
Jan:
So, working with your subconscious mind…… it takes a little time.
You need to have quiet time. And how do you think about the ability
to self reflect. So that if a person gives their subconscious mind
an assignment or a goal to be fleshed out...... how much do they need
to be aware of the signs along the way...... that they are getting
some response from their subconscious mind? That they are getting
some answers? What's the role of self-reflection?
Robert:
O boy, . ... is that what you call self reflection?
Jan:
Yes!
Robert:
Is the answers along the way?
Jan:
Well, self reflection is a lot of things and one of the things it
is... is being able to reflect back on what's happened. "Oh, I noticed
earlier today, someone talked to me about that thing I had wondered
about".
Robert:
Oh, I ask them a magic question. My clients ...... I say "What would
be the very smallest thing that could happen in your life that would
indicate that the change you desire is coming about?" So they begin
to watch for that. When that occurs then we go to the next step. So
they.........
Jan:
So you do think it is important that they notice?
Robert:
Well I think it's important that they see the changes occurring, yes.
But they don't have to necessarily be big changes. Because the changes
may multiply or they may speed up. I think it is a truth that as you
near the end of a task there is a great speed up.
Jan:
But as a hypnotist and a psychotherapist both you and I know that
....... part of what we do is help people to be self-reflective. We
help them to be conscious of their life and what's happening to them.
Not always in control of everything or planning it all out but........
Robert:
I think awareness is everything ... I mean …. I think that awareness
by and of its self is curative. If you can see what it is that you
are doing rather than try to make a change. Most people try to make
things happen and all they do..... Fritz Perls talked about that...
you know, if you want to make a change most people try to act as if
that change is happening and they just create an artifact. Now they
have another layer of this onion they have to peel off in order to
get back to the basics, so it's not a matter of acting as if, though
there is a whole psychology of self image psychology.
It is
knowing what it is that you would like to have and giving yourself
permission for it, knowing you have permission for it, and to open
yourself to it. And then to be aware of opportunities that arrive.
You can't just have a fantasy and go down into the basement and wait
for the phone to ring. You know what I'm saying? .... You have to
be out doing something, but ...... you can't determine what it is
that you are doing that is going to be ..... terribly important and
what is going to be less important ..... and I think that is where
the intuition goes... and once you set this up ..... then you open
this up ........ and kind of going with the feeling .... making a
call.....
Jan:
And you have to be curious about it.
Robert:
Yes...... curiosity would be great! Yes, and watching for things to
change and just not trying to force it. I think if you force it your
going to bust it. But to just go along with it, and watch that it's
happening ...... and I think you'll be surprised when it occurs.
Jan:
So when you are "forcing", you are really letting your conscious mind
get in the way.
Robert:
Yes, and the conscious mind wants to get in the way ..... it wants
to ....... you know, I think it gets competitive.... it wants to say,
"well.... I know how to do this, I know how to do that..... this is
the way we should go. And your unconscious mind saying no, it's not
what you have to do first.... this is what you do first and this is
what you do second.... and being able to relax and let that happen...
and I think some people find it .... demeaning if they don't recognize
that their unconscious is also them. They say, "I should be able to
figure this out myself and I should be able to do this myself".
Well
it is yourself doing it! Just that you are using a part of your mind.....
why try to live your life with a $29.00 Target calculator, when your
sitting on top of a big high speed computer? You know…. but that's
what people do. And that's how we're taught, "think" ...... IBM ...
for years had think signs up ......
Jan:
So they have to really understand that this is their mind.
Robert:
Yes!
Jan:
Well, let's wrap by visiting more fully the difference between the
brain and the mind. The brain versus the mind. What is the brain ....
and what is the mind?
Robert:
Well, the mind might be considered in some metaphysical concepts as
"spirit". It might be used interchangeably. So we say that the mind
is directing our bodies, the brain is simply part of the body. The
brain is the computer that fires that does all the different things
within the body. The mind is the thing that gives the direction to
the computer..... to the brain. Now they can dissect a brain all they
want, they never found a mind. Personally I believe that the mind
is not in the body, the body is in the mind.
Jan:
On one of the Bill Moyer specials there was a ........ a neuro-medical
specialist who said they had discovered brain cells throughout the
entire body. Cells that are similar. So you are right, the brain is
in the entire physical body.
Robert:
Right, and the mind is, I think, separate from that.
(End
of Interview, Part 1)
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